Karen Savlov

[Noctivagus]

...could foresee the conversation just turning into name-calling and bruised egos.

To be fair, isn't it true that the first post accuses Karen of being a 'loon'... is that not 'name calling' already?

[Noctivagus]

I have not been invited to participate in this particular dialogue, but thought I would briefly comment on what I have heard.

I don't think many or any forums would have hunted you down to invite you... though since some here at Gestalt could have contacted you, it might have been the polite and fair thing to do. Its all part and parcel of having your views on the internet, I suppose. You build your bricks up and lo many come along and knock them down behind your back Don't let it worry you.

Concider yourself an internet celebrity

[Noctivagus]

I do not know where to start with responses back to the discussion about me.

Don't worry about what has gone before. You seem to be making a good start with this post in any case Whatever you do, try not to feel besieged because of this thread. You are doing us a courtesy by responding in the way you have, following some of the things which appeared in this thread.

Thanks for listening.

An interesting post

Could you perhaps expand on 'Relational Therapy' and 'lack of self-agency'... these are terms I'd like a deeper understanding of

[Karen Savlov]

Let me take a minute to address some points that have been made. I may not address all, but I will try. As you know I am just beginning to use this web site so I do not know how to capture the previous comments. I can see there is a way to do that. I will take some time at a later date to try to do that. My ideas about an "Incomplete Attachment" are meant to be a statement based on my observations/experiences. Autistic children can demonstrate strong attachments and we can see that when the child may gain our attention with a certain subject they love to talk to. Some of the chldren will attach very strongly to the point of not being able to let go. I believe that the children and possibly others are always in the 'attachment mode'. They are waiting to attach and will thus demonstrate attachment behaviors. I think of this as being primed for attachment, but it just has not happened yet. These demonstrated attachment behaviors do not mean the child has actually attached. I feel my job is to help the child to complete the attachment process. Of course this is if the child wants the help. It will always be more difficult to gain their attention because in my mind they have never previously had the experience of a completed attachment.

I also said that autistic behaviors are communications of the body because the child does not have access to verbalizing (using words) his thoughts and feelings. I agree with the comment that said something like 'of course this would be the case if the child does not feel understood.' I believe that understanding and recognition from others are important ways that help the person with ASD get to know himself.

Relational Therapy is my own process that I have used in my many years of working with people on the spectrum. As I mentioned previously, it is similar to Floortime in that emphasis is to join the person with ASD in their world and understand their world from their perspective. It is my belief that by doing that the child will trust me (this can take a long time). It is through this trust, understanding and recognition that the child can form an attachment. Ultimately it is up to the person with ASD to decide whether the attachment is what they want.

[Karen Savlov]

I also want to say that Relational Therapy is based on understanding Autism Spectrum Disorders from the perspective of an "Incomplete Attachment". I believe that people with autism have been badly misunderstood and because of this are treated inappropriately. When one understands autism as an "Incomplete Attachment" the type of work with the person makes sense and can help the person thrive. I believe many of the treatments do not take into account what is going on within the individual person with autism. I believe that is where we need to start - with the individual and their needs. I know that is a strong position and statement. It is just a strong belief I have. I am saying this from my vantage point and understand if others do not come from that perspective.

Self-Agency is the ability to use one's self in relationship to others. Some people call it initiative, volition or ownership of feelings and thoughts. I believe that self-agency as well as speaking is acquired within the attachment process. A key point to mention is that because of the incomplete attachment the child is left without the ability to use herself both in body (lacks self-agency) and mind (lacks theory of mind). The ability to use one’s self will vary from child to child. Some children will be more conscious of him/herself and thus have more access to use themselves in relationship to others. Thus we have a continuum of ability, which is typically known as the functioning level of the individual on the spectrum (low functioning, high functioning and Asperger's).

[ruth]

Wow. It's a complete surprise to me to find that Karen has found her way to Gestalt. A very pleasant one at that. And Nocti, you are always a voice of reason and a complete gentleman. I'm so happy that you extended a warm welcome to Karen. I am just dumb founded at the moment to find that I have not been aware of her presence here until now - as my last post on this thread shows, I gave everyone the peace sign and considered this thread dead, for me anyway. Just noticed Nocti's recent post when I was browsing the forum topics and was curious to see what he had to say, especially since he hasn't been posting a lot lately. Missed you Nocti.

So, welcome Karen. I hope you will be coming back to discuss your ideas with us. I myself am in psycho analysis, love my analyst, have, I think, improved very much over the last year and a half that I have been seeing him, am better in touch with reality, my reality at any rate. My only regret is that I didn't get into therapy much earlier in my life. I think I could have avoided so much mostly self inflicted misery and infinitely increased my productivity. Enough for now. Have quite a lot going on today. I am very curious how you found your way to Gestalt, but don't feel pressured to tell us. I feel like Gomer Pyle right now. "Surprise, surprise."

[Karen Savlov]

Finally I would like to say that the depression, hopelessness and sad feelings that some with ASD may experience possibly comes from being misunderstood, not recognized and the inability to use parts of themself that need to "see the light of day". Again thank you for letting me express myself here.

[goddessoflubbock]

Dr. Savlov I'm sure you never had any question about where I stood regarding your methods and thoughts, we tweeted quite a bit back in the summer.

Since Gestalt is listed as my "home page" on Twitter, I am only surprised you didn't come poking around sooner.

I assure you that quoting is easier on Gestalt than the list function is on Twitter

While I may have been a little harsh (my attitude being a direct result of how I feel that day) I still stand by my comments and beliefs.

[ruth]

Finally I would like to say that the depression, hopelessness and sad feelings that some with ASD may experience possibly comes from being misunderstood, not recognized and the inability to use parts of themself that need to "see the light of day". Again thank you for letting me express myself here.

Karen - about the quoting function on this site: Go to the post you would like to respond to. Click on the "Quote" button in upper right of the post. It will open a posting or dialogue box with the comments you want to respond to already in quotes. Type your response beneath that. When you submit your post the information you are quoting will be highlighted along with the poster's name and your response will be included as well. Hope I explained that correctly.

Also, if you only want to quote a line or two, use your mouse or finger on the mouse pad to highlight the lines, then copy and paste into your post. Once pasted into your post, highlight again and then click on the Quote option in the tool bar above your posting box.

[Karen Savlov]

Goddess- I found this web site by googling myself. I was not looking for anything in particular, but sometimes it is fun to do that. After I read your post here, I did go back to your comment on my blog and saw that you did tell me about this web site. I know we have differences on our perspectives, but that is okay. I would rather agree, but I can live with the differences. My daughter has lots of differences with me regarding autism. She works in the field. I can see that it is easier to use the quote mechanism here compared to the lists on twitter. It took me a long time to figure that out.

Ruth - thanks for the details on how to quote. I will work on using it when I am not so tired. I appreciate that you found psychoanalysis. I am not only an analyst, but have spent over 20 years in the process myself. I have learned so much about myself from the process which has helped me greatly. You have a year and half which is a good start. It is a hard process, but worthwhile.

I am glad I have found this place web site. Talk to you all soon.

[rdos]

From what I've read at other places, and about therapies in general, I think it might be in order to do some defining of what autism is and what it is not. I believe that many people think a cure is when aggressive and disruptive behaviors are removed. It would make sense to have such therapies for autism, but in order not to provoke people that are into the neurodiversity / personality-view of autism, it would be best not to speak about curing autism, but relieiving symptoms, giving them better coping-strategies and making them generally more functional. I'm all for therapies that aim at the latter, but not when the goal is to make the child neurotypical (if that is even possible).

So, if we speak about Relational Therapy from the perspective of reducing or removing disruptive behaviors, I can see the point and its usefulness. It is very probable that disruptive behaviors could at least partially be caused by poor and/or incomplete bonding to caregivers. There are also cases where the bonding is strong, but the child does not want to communicate with other people (selective mutism). In such cases I dont think Relational Therapy is useful. It is not a good idea to force the child to be social above the level that is comfortable for it. It will eventually overcome its selective mutism and start functioning much better as it learns the rule of social interaction by passive observation. I know I did as a child.

[Noctivagus]

Thank you Karen for your two explaining posts I'll be re-reading them when I return here later in the day.

Goddess- I found this web site by googling myself. I was not looking for anything in particular, but sometimes it is fun to do that.

I do that sometimes also... simply for curiosity/fun Though it can be somewhat disturbing sometimes to find where your name has cropped up (in my case a couple of gossip sites).

[ruth]

Quoting Karen

Ruth - thanks for the details on how to quote. I will work on using it when I am not so tired. I appreciate that you found psychoanalysis. I am not only an analyst, but have spent over 20 years in the process myself. I have learned so much about myself from the process which has helped me greatly. You have a year and half which is a good start. It is a hard process, but worthwhile.

Over 20 years in psychoanalysis? That sounds excessive to me. Let me be completely honest. t sounds absolutely insane to me. Not to mention incredibly expensive. I consider it excessive for me to be spending the amount that medicare doesn't cover for my sessions every week. I'm thinking about giving it another six months or so and then calling it quits.

I went to see my psychiatrist with the chief complaint of anxiety and depression which was manifesting in very troubling physical symptoms, namely severe and unrelenting nausea. I came to the conclusion that my symptoms were psycho-somatic after a brief hospitalization, beginning with a trip to the ER, followed by admittance for thorough testing that revealed no known cause for the nausea. Soon after beginning therapy, my symptoms diminished and then went away. Occasionally, under stress, the symptoms return, but I can now see the connection between what I think and how I feel and I'm not so afraid of the symptoms anymore. Also, being taken seriously is the best medicine in the world for me. That is good progress I think, and well worth every penny. But twenty years? Is that not unusual?

[Noctivagus]

Not knocking the USA... but the impression we get in the UK is that a lot of Americans spend half their lives, if not more, in psychoanalysis. Its viewed as almost an American past-time... at least where I grew up in the UK. I am sure this is not actually the case.

I do not know if 20 years is excessive or not... in the UK it would be, at least with the NHS, unless one was rather clinical. However if it is necessary for such a duration then surely it is necessary in whatever country. Is it the case that psychoanalysts do psychoanalysis on each other as part and parcel of becoming what they are - or should I not pay too much heed to 'Spellbound' (what can I say, I'm a film buff)

I've just had a few months in psychoanalytical assessment regarding what to do about my possible self-esteem issues and depression. We got absolutely nowhere before the psychologist ran out of aproaches. Maybe it sometimes takes 20 years - I don't know.

[Karen Savlov]

Regarding being in psychoanalysis for 20 years, I agree it seems excessive. I could not have been as successful in life if I did not spend the time and money. It was my way of finding a life that has been very meaningful. I am not recommending it for everyone. It was just helpful for me.

Yes, a Psychoanalyst is required to be in analysis for three to five years during the training process. Actually I found that part of the program to be the most beneficial to me.