Guys and Dolls

[Mesonoxian]

I was reading Sophist’s latest addition to her case study and I wanted to share my thoughts on some of issues she brings up.

You mentioned that JNCQ has expressed some doubt concerning your Asperger’s diagnoses. I was wondering if this doubt could be stemming from the possibility that he perceives Asperger’s through the paradigm to the “ultra male brain”.

I bring this up because this relates to a discussion I had with a diagnosed aspie female I meet at an Asperger’s Society adult meet up group (let’s call her K). K was telling me she was beginning to have doubts about her diagnosis. Most of the other people in the group were not nearly as communicative as she was and presented far more obvious stereotypical traits (e.g. atypical speech patterns, difficulty making eye contact, etc).

I found this interesting since I have been grappling with some doubts myself. I have grown much more functional in public over the past couple of years and do not suffer from melt downs as badly as in the past. K then mentioned something that got me thinking. She told me that for much of her life she found she was much more comfortable in the company of men. Specifically she didn’t like being drawn into the politics of females in a work scenario. For example, female co-worker A would come into conflict with female co-worker B. Co-worker A would then try to get K to hate co-worker B as part of a campaign of social isolation against co-worker B. K has no interest in being part of this but finds the pressure distressful. This was intriguing to me in contrast with my personal experiences.

Although male, I have tended to present in some ways like a female with Asperger’s. For example, I would try to mimic the expressions of my peers, I didn’t like rough and tumble play, I spoke like the stereotypical “little professor”, and even my ADHD manifested more in the form of daydreaming as opposed to physical hyperactivity. Socialising has always been a challenge for me as it tends to be for all people with Asperger’s. The few regular interactions I had growing up, that I found personally fulfilling, were primarily with females. I have been wondering how I could reconcile the experiences of K and myself.

A female (with or without Asperger’s) in an all male group is as much of an outsider as a male in an all female group. I submit that an outsider is considered somewhat exempt from participation in the “politics” of the larger group. Since aspies tend to be either oblivious to or uninterested in the socio-political manoeuvring around them, any environment where they are essentially non-combatants would more comfortable. Also there may be a possibility that some of the atypical characteristics associated with aspies could be interpreted by members of their non-gender equivalent peers as quirks of the aspie’s gender. A male aspie with an obsession for Napoleonic history might be seen by his female peers as simply a “guy thing”.

I wonder if females (or perhaps anyone) with Asperger’s who have managed to find their coping mechanisms simply do not present as much on the surface as most men do.

This is just my lay opinion. I have not studied this topic in sufficient depth to be certain to my personal satisfaction. Please feel free to hit me through the internet with a rolled up newspaper if I am incredibly off base.

Postscript
Sorry if I want on a bit of a tangent at one point.

[Sophist]

Undoubtedly my sex plays a big role, as sex plays a huge role in any person's life. I know that JNSQ is more familiar with the more severely affected aspies/HFAs, so this undoubtedly affects his schema respresentation of "Asperger's Syndrome". Unfortunately, the women with AS he's known have had much bigger problems in socialization than I ever have. One woman even to the point of requesting her office be as far away from all other offices as possible so she didn't have to see people during her work day.

I guess part of me is a bit disappointed that I thought JNSQ was getting to know me better and better. But even despite this, he can't see what I see in myself. I thought he'd gotten to know me well enough to see my autisticness-- those traits I notice in myself. But he hasn't.

So my own bf, the man I'm emotionally closer to than any other person in the world, doesn't see what I see.

[Mesonoxian]

Pardon me but, if the traits you describe are mostly invisible how would it be possible for him to see them at all? I am not sure how the fact that you love him that would have some influence on his perception.

Sorry if I am being dense.

[SomethingElse]

I just read the post in case studies and this is my (direct) response:


I think it depends completely on you and what you're comfortable with. I am the same way with depression. Even if I'm not currently suffering an 'episode', I often feel uncomfortable answering questions on forms that ask about mental health in the negative (saying that I don't have problems) because I know that I am prone to problems. If I was confident that they'd never come back, that'd be fine, but as I know that it depends on my situation at the time, I don't like the idea of completely cutting myself off from any potential future help!

Funnily enough, as much as I hear about guys being more affected by AS, every male I've met in real life with AS has seemed less autistic than me. I don't know what they're like on bad days or in a situation that they'd define as difficult, but most of these I met whilst participating in research, which is a situation I'm very anxious in (lots of strangers, an unfamiliar place, being expected to talk to a group - something I wanted to participate in, but I found difficult).

When I'm getting on okay with people or trying hard to be polite and to smile (which isn't even just a copied behaviour for me... I don't do it because I 'should', I do it to avoid yet more confrontation and confusion - if someone questions why I don't look happy, I find that a more difficult situation to deal with than just forcing as good a smile on my face as I can - although I have learned that I often pull a completely different face when I think that I'm smiling) then I probably don't seem especially autistic, but then lots of autistic people are harder to pinpoint. I wouldn't have had Temple Grandin pegged as autistic if I didn't already know she was. Admittedly I've only watched one lecture, but it didn't seem obvious to me that she was autistic - in fact I was surprised at how 'un-autistic' she seemed, because I'd built up a preconception. Her appearance doesn't actually make her any less autistic, though.

Fact is, if I seem okay because I've gone out and had a few drinks and thus dulled my senses a bit, or I seem okay because I'm being quite relaxed, that doesn't erase the fact that when I do get anxious or upset I'll be different. Even down to my walk getting more awkward with how awkward I feel in myself! Anyone who wouldn't believe I'm autistic, doesn't know me. To the people who do really know me it's obvious. For some of them it's more obvious than it is to myself! I remember filling in a questionairre with my mum there (I wanted to make sure that she agreed with my answers so that I wasn't exaggerating my autism) and her answers being even more autistic than mine (in that I was playing it down or not realising how obvious certain traits in me were and she was fully aware of how autistic my behaviour was).

I think that it's for these sorts of reasons that I dislike being given the label of 'Asperger's' and 'female'. Both of those words seem to suggest to a lot of people that your problems are simply mild. Autistic men, autistic women, HFA men, HFA woman, AS men, AS women... That seems to be how people view the spectrum, from 'strong autism' to 'mild autism'. I don't think that that's strictly true. It's not as easily summed up as that. I think it just causes me more problems.

[goddessoflubbock]

I think those closest to us have the hardest time seeing the truth about us.

My father was an alcoholic most of my life - ask my mother and she'll deny it to this day.

I wonder often how I didn't see what was really going on with DS (and DH).

Back then, DS had very classic signs of being on the autistic spectrum. I think part of me knew, which is why I kept pushing for a neuro eval - which ended up being a big disappointment.

So JNSQ may only be seeing what he wants to see. We do it all the time.

[Sophist]

Pardon me but, if the traits you describe are mostly invisible how would it be possible for him to see them at all? I am not sure how the fact that you love him that would have some influence on his perception.

Sorry if I am being dense.

No, not being dense. I just, I don't know... I just feel that the closer we become, the more obvious it should be. That I'm more prone to "let my hair down" in front of him than in front of others.

I think it depends completely on you and what you're comfortable with. I am the same way with depression. Even if I'm not currently suffering an 'episode', I often feel uncomfortable answering questions on forms that ask about mental health in the negative (saying that I don't have problems) because I know that I am prone to problems. If I was confident that they'd never come back, that'd be fine, but as I know that it depends on my situation at the time, I don't like the idea of completely cutting myself off from any potential future help!

True, it's very similar. Right now, things are going well for me. I cope as well as the next person, many times better than many nonauties, heh. I don't know what I would be like if most aspects of my environment weren't conducive to my success...

I think those closest to us have the hardest time seeing the truth about us.

My father was an alcoholic most of my life - ask my mother and she'll deny it to this day.

I wonder often how I didn't see what was really going on with DS (and DH).

Back then, DS had very classic signs of being on the autistic spectrum. I think part of me knew, which is why I kept pushing for a neuro eval - which ended up being a big disappointment.

So JNSQ may only be seeing what he wants to see. We do it all the time.

Maybe. I'm not sure.

[Noctivagus]

Autism specialists have always said to me that my Autism is very obvious to those who work with Autistics. My wife says that, when together, she doesn't think of me as Autistic... it only happens when she and I are with others who are not Autistic... then she sees it clearly.

I admit, I would have doubts about my Autism... regardless of my diagnosis... if it wasn't for the fact I have passed the susceptability on to both my children and others in direct line to my Maternal Grandfather are also diagnosed with Autism.

I think it is natural to consider oneself average, and everybody else to be the strange ones - some stranger than others - lol

I personally don't hold with the notion of Autism as 'Ultra-maleness'.

[composer777]

I've been wondering about my own diagnosis. I can pull of normal pretty well a lot of time. I like saying things with the right inflection, getting just the right tone to my voice, pulling it off. I just don't adapt very well in social situations, and quickly run out of things to say, especially if the person I'm talking to doesn't share my special interests. But, those first few minutes, or if you get me on a topic I know a lot about, I'm fine, and in fact, I think I am a bit over-polished in that sense.

But, the thing is, ASD fits. I think about what I would be treated for if I didn't have ASD. Here's the the treatment path I was going down before I looked into ASD. I was being treated for:
1. extreme anxiety at times, much of it social, but some of it caused by sudden noises or talking. So, I was being treated for anxiety
2. atypical add. I could focus for a very long time, but had trouble controlling that focus. I've had severe problems with executive function. I also tend to space out a lot (much worse when I was younger)
3. ocd type tendencies, where I'll get on a topic, and talk about it non-stop. My wife describe it as "phases". My focus used to be more narrow, but I think as I've gotten older, I've tried to vary it a bit, as a way of adapting to a world that isn't very tolerant of people that are only good at one thing.
4. anger that seemed to appear out of nowhere, like when I was on vacation, or when my wife would want to do something on the spur of the moment.
5. depression - (because i have flat affect, anxiety, don't socialize much, if at all (but I never did), and have trouble sleeping (as I always have))

So, I could have ASD, or maybe instead I just have anxiety combined with a touch of atypical add, depression, along with some odd OCD type tendencies and anger management issues with triggers that are tough to explain. One may laugh at all those diagnosis, but all of the above were proposed with a straight face before I was reevaluated for ASD, and just about everything we were looking into is part of the autism spectrum symptoms. When you combine that with the fact that I've had all of the above since before I could talk (I would push my mother away as young as 1, was obsessed with electronics and would play with things by taking them apart, and never had more than a few friends, usually 0-1 at a time), and it's pretty clear that it's developmental, not something that manifested when I was older, like OCD and other disorders usually do.