Asperger's Syndrome vs. Borderline Personality Disorder

[hesperus]

Having grown up around "trauma" therapists, I am glad this research (or rather, reviews of the lack of research) are cropping up now.

I remember you saying you were given some inacurrate labels in the past. Was the repressed trauma also suggested to you, then?

I agree that it's very difficult to test such hypotheses (and being untestable means they aren't scientific). And the researchers can't exactly induce trauma on purpose, due to ethical considerations.

I vaguely recall there was some media attention a few years ago on false memory syndrome and how thousands of people were found to have been traumatised by therapists encouraging them to believe they had been sexually abused in childhood, even though they'd started therapy with no thought to having been abused like that. The victims were mostly women who were often quite suggestible and were given some sort of dissociative diagnosis. I've looked it up again, and it seems to be mostly in the US. There's even a survivor website: http://www.fmsfonline.org/.

The therapists follow a list of items that explain how supposed repressed memories manifest. However, they don't have to validate anything that arises. That, alone, is considered to be malpractice.

One of the retractors on the survivor website outlines the steps of how false memories were implanted in her. She said it was a slow process where the therapist first puts doubts in your mind about your childhood and memory. Later steps involve such things as focusing on the bad and establishing loyalties to the therapist. When she outlines an example of the first step--having doubts put in your mind--it reminds me of the way the therapists I saw would usually pull explanations out of nowhere and not consider alternatives. I was amazed at how scientifically illiterate the main therapist was because I think she had some sort of science degree before the psychology ones. The woman outlines the first step as follows. If I'd read it before attending therapy, I'd have assumed this sort of dialogue would be quite far-fetched, but these are exactly the sorts of things they say (though in my case, they didn't mention abuse of the sexual kind):

The starting point for me was the therapist asking me if I had ever been sexually abused. After I got over the shock, I emphatically said, "No, never!" I was told that I fit the signs (symptom list) of being abused.

The power of suggestion is an underestimated power. In my second session I happened to tell my therapist that I sometimes had strange dreams of heated arguments between my father and me, dreams of having my father send bears after me, and of his coming after me with a knife. I was told that these were dreams that sexually abused people have and, therefore, I had to have been sexually abused. This was the start of the downhill slide of my life for the next 2 1/2 years.

The following are a few examples of the conversations that I had in therapy that put doubts in my mind, causing me to begin to wonder if perhaps I had been a victim of sexual abuse:

Therapist: You're a high achiever in school (4.0 GPA). This suggests that you have been sexually abused.
Beth: How?
Therapist: You absorbed yourself with your academic studies in order to cope with the abuse you experienced at home.
Beth: But, why don't I remember any of this?
Therapist: It is because you have repressed it. It's the only way you could deal with the pain. Now you are mature enough to handle the information your mind is trying to reveal to you.
Beth: Really?
Therapist: You need to trust me. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to sexual abuse. I will help you recover your past and work through it. You see, Beth, the only way you will ever be a mentally healthy person is to recover these memories and deal with them. Then you can become a truly whole person.

The suggestion that your family and childhood may not be as good as you thought is powerfully implanted.

[goddessoflubbock]

I find these "repressed memory" therapists particularly damaging. Case in point - my best/only friend growing up. "L" and I were virtually inseparable from the time we were in diapers. The school kept us in the same classrooms all the way through grammar school purposely - partly because L never spoke a word anywhere but on our block and partly because we were all the other had (interestingly this was seen as an ailment for L but compassion from me?).

My life and that of L were as intertwined as two people's lives could be. After school we were at one or the other's house, and often slept at one another's homes on the weekends. She had two younger sibs, I was raised as an only.

After college L took an entry level job as a bank teller, well below her abilities but it would help get her to start talking to people. One day the bank was robbed, L had a gun held to her head. She's never worked a day since. It took her years to even see a therapist to help her through it, and within weeks of seeing this therapist she was convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that members of her family had physically abused her during her childhood.

I would never question what someone says happened to them, as even with L we weren't together 24/7, but pieces of it never fit. This therapist did nothing to help her with the trauma from the bank holdup but was far more interested in "investigating" her childhood. The more I questioned L about this, the less she would talk to me about it - to the point we've not spoken in over 2 years - a loss of a 40 YEAR friendship. Don't get me wrong, looking back over our childhoods, both our families did their best to put the fun in dysfunctional - but something doesn't feel right. Her "selective mutism" wasn't at home, but rather anytime we left our block - literally if we were on our bikes a block from home she'd stop talking. Home was her comfort zone.

Ok, I've vented long enough I guess I feel torn that this therapist may be leading L down the wrong path (she's cut off ties with her whole family as well) and that I lost the person who knew me better than anyone in this world.

[phin]

The whole idea of false memories is personally beyond me. No one has ever pushed me to remember what I cannot recall as if it was yesterday. Rather in my case, it would have been traumatizing to me if in therapy my trauma had been belittled or ignored. However I'm not someone who is going to preach nurture over nature or nature over nurture. I believe in both - at the very least I was surely born hypersensitive.

I never forgot any of the horribly traumatic events of my life - starting at six - before I entered into therapy at 38 (at that time I was consumed and paralyzed by anxiety, it was either look for help or check out for good). I was able to pretend that those terrible moments no longer had any hold over me for at least two decades after the last one (when I was fifteen)- but I was wrong. When the doctors let me know how wrong I was, just how permanent the physical damage was, well let's just say that I "decompensated" with a major "melancholic" depression - in the space of a few weeks I went down to 43 kilos (94 lbs.), my state alternating between catatonic immobility and absurd agitation.
I made the mistake of consulting a psychotherapist instead of a psychiatrist. She meant well but dove too rapidly into the traumatic moments of my past. Heck - I was already glued to the past like a fly to flypaper - I had lost all contact with the present and the future had lost all sense for me. So I regressed and really started climbing walls. She did refer me finally to a great psychiatrist who was steeped in attachment theory and an existentialist to the core, who knew just the pace to proceed at. He also was not hesitant about writing out a prescription.

I saw him once a week over several years and he still prescribes me meds for insomnia. I will say that there was surely a moment in the "therapeutic process" when I disconnected totally from the world - old friends included. I think it was a part of the disease process getting played out as much as from the therapy. But I did come back around, and for the first time I can really talk WITH those I care about, instead of always fighting back a free floating uneasiness in any and every social situation that kept me from ever being really in touch with anyone.

So those of you who think you have lost a friend to therapy - be patient - maybe they're just diving deep and will take awhile to surface. As for the rest of it - I'd say beware of anyone suggesting anything to you that your own mind cannot corroborate.

[charlottejayball]

oh, wow. i just keep reading and re-reading this thread. a newbie's wonder, i suppose. i've been through so many diagnoses in my life, i cant' even count. but i was definitively labelled a borderline at age 27 (i self-diagnosed at 16 after reading some linehan). anyway, there were always unexplained bits... this connection between asperger's adn bpd is astounding me... and sparking all kinds of connections. i am the type of bpd patient phin describes- often called 'acting-in'- but i have not met many clinicians who know what that is or what to do with me. my own handle on the intellectual understanding of my condition has been, sometimes, a detriment to me in working with therapists and in getting hep. i think this happens to a lot of us who are not the seen-in-the-media, described-in-the-first-few-posts type of borderline. phin, thank you so much for your insightful comments. and all of you, really, thanks- for being here. words are hope, right now, for me.

[Noctivagus]

Hi Charlotte and welcome to Gestalt

[Sophist]

Hi Charlotte and welcome to Gestalt

Ditto to that. Howdy, Charlotte. I'm glad this thread has been helpful for you.

[Faint_of_hearts]

Hello my name is Brian. I'm 22 almost 23, receintly found out exactly what apergers is, and have very strong reason to believe I suffer from it. I feel I fit all of the major symtoms of it, and almost all the minor symtoms or it. I'm not in school at the moment. but hoping to try again soon. My story is how I found out I am more then likley an aspie, and it happened thorough an lengthy ordeal I've been having with a girl halfway across the world who is BPD.

I met a very lovley young austrailian lady named Sarah, in one of the most unlikley places you'd ever think to meet someone like that. The popular MMORPG World of Warcraft. I could tell right away there were things about her that werent right. She was very closed minded, never seemed to think about other peoples feelings besides her own and a close circle of those she cared for, which I happend to be one of those people. There were just some people in game that she could not get along with. A few individuals she just hated with a passion, and there was no changing her mind on that, no matter how hard I tried to convince her that the fiasco between them was just a misunderstanding. There were times her behavior was so irrational, I tried to politely advise her against wanting to do things to that person she didnt like. When I did this she flew off the handel on me, telling me that she did'nt wanna talk to me anymore, and that I was being petty. I was completly shell-shocked by this responce, but in time I learned how to kinda try and avoid those problems with her. I think what really drew me to her was when our guild on WoW fell appart and almost everyone blamed Sarah for it, becuase of the problems she was having with other guild members. Our guild leader, who which she had very strong feelings for at the time, also blamed her, stopped talking to her, and wanted nothing to do with her. I felt absolutly terrible for her. I could see she was very hurt, very heartbroken, and very upset because of all of this. I took it upon myself to try and make her feel better, because I could not stand to see her so hurt, and I love to see her happy which brings me to my next part. Now her manipulative side is really what did me in the most I think. When I first got to know Sarah, she opened up to me in ways no other girl ever opened up to me. When she was happy she had this cute girlier that I just just loved to death. She told me many times that I was gorgeous, cute, and sweet. She shared personal things with me as well, "girl stuff, and other things you normaly wouldnt share with another guy". There were personal things she was afraid to tell her real life friends that she came to me about, for caring support, let me tell ya I was and still am always give it to her. This to her really was nothing, but to me, it was a major deal. Just hearing how happy I made her feel really lit me up inside. When she finally added me on myspace I immidiatly fell head over heals for her. I knew she lived in Melbourne Aus, and I lived just outside Milwaukee Wisconsin, which is a pretty damn huge distance, but I didnt care. I was just amazed that a girl that attractive would open up to me in the way she did, but it came at a price. The more she encoruaged me, the more she complimented me, the more I wanted. It didnt take long before I found out that I cared for her very deeply, but deep down the truth still remained. She lives in Australia, and I live in Wisconsin, and with that truth came a boatload of problems for me. Though I may have been a trusted friend of hers, which I'll tell ya, thats saying somthing, she would still talk to me about other guys shes seeing. There would be nights we were talking on MSN and she would be asking me what I thought she should wear. I of course would say, "well whatever you wear I'm sure you'll look beautiful nontheless" then I would ask why, and she would tell me that she goin to see a guy she really really likes a lot, and that would just drive me up a wall. Especially when she would come to me telling me about guys that werent treating her right. It made me angry, and apathetic at the same time. I guess to cut a long story short, all these emotions I have for her, love, jealous envy for the guys she sees, coping with the fact she lives far away, and that nothings ever gonna happen between us, have been creating a lot of tension between us for Id say the last month at least. She never really tells me anything anymore, and it makes me depressed. I feel like I'm being shut out. She never wants to talk about whats going on with her, and when I hint to her that Im feeling down becuse shes going blank on me and only talking to me for short periods of time, she blows me off, or says we cant be friends if I'm going to be so negitive all the time, and that I only think about myself. To hear that tore me up inside. This whole ordeal over the last couple months has also had a tremdous effect of my real life as well. I shut out my family, I've been spending way too much time on the computer. I've been late to work several times and nearly lost my job. There was one night my mom confronted me, and asked me why I've been acting so off latley. I of course blew her off and said it was none of her business, and It was at that point she said, that maybe I should be tested for aspergers. She felt that maybe I could get disibility if I lost my job. I of course was very upset to be accused of such a disability. I then looked it up on google, and I learned maybe my mom was right. I also told Sarah about this too and she agreed too that I showed a lot of the signs of aspergers, having had studied psychology, and haveing a degree in that. Irratic emotional behavior as a child, difficulty with social cues, hyperactiveness, and if I must say through this whole ordeal, easily manipulated, and heavily affected by the moods of others.


I really not sure what I should do in all of this. I tried deleting her from everything, and leaving her a lengthy note explaining, that it was not out of spite or hate. That I just needed time to stop thinking about her, pick myself back up, and get my life back on track, and maybe then I could come to better terms with her and be a better friend. She was still very offended by that and said some terrible things to me that hurt more more than I like to think. I ended up appologising multiple times and readding her. The last 6 months have been rough to say the least but I learned a lot too. It really seems to me that people with BPD, as hard as it may be trying to cooperate with them at times, are actually really good people deep down when you think about it. when you really see past whats on the outside of them, you see a different person deep down. Someone who just wants to make friends, but sometimes isnt always sure how to do it. yea maybe they get a little excessive at times but I don't think thats any reason to shun them or look down upon then and spit, like I've seen other people do in my sitiuation. I almost like to think that BPD and AS can go hand in hand if you're like me, a person who perfers the oppisites attract scenario in their relationships and friendships. People with BPD tend to be very outgoing, while people with AS are not so. I think being with somone who is BPD is almost the shot in the a** AS people need to get up, go out and socialize more. It almost seems to me that I was probly one of the people who cared for Sarah the most, but that might not be true. Me and Sarah are completly different people, but it's those differences I like so much. Shes a person, whos into primping, wearing designer clothing, going to parties, and getting down to popular music, such as Lady Gaga, Justin Timberlake, NERD and other stuff like that. Me I'm pretty content with my natural appearance. I gel my hair up sometimes, but I dont really wear cologne "family can't stand the stuff". My clothing usually only consists of worn out cargo jeens, and a tee-shirt, usually with somthing guitar or snowboard realated on it. My music consists of mainly old school rock n roll. My talents are in music actually. I play guitar, bass, drums, trombone, piano, and harmonica. I have the ability to tell musical pitches directly by ear, which I guess is a very rare gift. I always perfered music that is a lot more instrumental, and I don't go out and party very often, but I could still seem myself dressing up nice and sharp, going to a party, bar, or club with Sarah, getting down and dancing to all the music shes into, and deffinatly have a lot of fun doing it. If I'm lucky I might just get to do some of that next year, if she decides to come to Wisconsin to see me, and a few other friends I guess. Not getting my hopes up about it though.

[Sophist]

Man, that sounds tough, Faint. Not sure what else to say.

But welcome to Gestalt, hope you enjoy it here.

[adhocisadirtyword]

Welcome, Faint!!

[Confussed]

I was thinking exactly this... moreover, that if two people, one male and one female, presented with identical symptoms, the male would be diagnosed AS and the female diagnosed BPD.

The thing is that that symptoms are the same, but come from a different place.

OBVIOUSLY someone with no social skills is going to have trouble in interpersonal relationships. Fear of abandonment in an aspie isn't pathological, it's a normal reaction to a pattern fairly out of someone's control. Not to mention that trouble forming new relationships will make this more intense. That last part is the opposite of a borderline, though. Borderlines tend to attach to new people quickly, whereas aspies fear of losing people comes largely from an inability to do that.

The meltdown vs outburst thing, obviously..

Borderlines tend to be manipulative. An aspie, while lacking the social ability to actually be manipulative, will seem that way, given the problems with eye contact, body language, etc. If your mannerisms don't reflect what you're saying, you're considered to be lying. Even if you aren't.
Not to mention that BPD is a label given to difficult patients that the therapist doesn't like. Someone with poor social skills who spouts lots of facts tends to fall into that category.

uhh.. I think I had more to say, but I don't remember it now.

[Faint_of_hearts]

aww thanks guys. And yea I've had my fair share of emotional outbursts from her. Sometimes to aviod them, I would just try my hardest to see things from her point of view "even though that's quite difficult for us aspies" and politly agree with her, and stand up for her when people in game WoW asked me why I was being friends with her. I think I ended up truning my back on a couple friends in game because of that, but at the same time me and sarah really seemed to get along well for a good while. As far as meltdowns on my part go, I've had at least 3 allready trying to cope with the truth between us. That we live so far apart, and she always says even if we did live closer, nothing would happen. I remember the first time she said that to me, I had a major meltdown. I ended up writing her this horrible letter on myspace, which really made her feel like I was just being like all the other guys she dated "that I was just using her and wanted to have sex with her" which I ended up deeply regreting shortly she read it. I almost had some suicidal thoughs there. I was just so shocked that I could write and send to her that horrible horrible garbage I wrote to her. I always prided myself on being a good man with good moral values, and I felt like I had just proven myself wrong, and It felt beyond terrible. To make matters worse, my other friend kylie in game who didnt like sarah, decided she would try and stand up for me "because apparently she saw I was upset and blamed sarah for it" go out of her way by going to the area of the WoW where sarah was minding her own bussiness, just playin her character, and feeling shi**y because of the note I worte her, and talk sh** about her on general chat where she and everyone else could read it, WITHOUT CONSULTING ME FIRST! This made her cry. When I learned of this shortly after it occured, I punched a whole in my wall with a screwdriver, then broke down a cried really really hard. Then really let kylie have it afterwards. Me and sarah made up and were good though by the end of the night, but yea thats was rough.

[Sophist]

Kind of reminds me of the song, When a Man Loves a Woman.

[Aspen]

A long distance relationship is always tough, but the distance in this case is huge, which makes it even more difficult.

Welcome to Gestalt, Faint of hearts.

[Faint_of_hearts]

It's not a relationship. She would never go that far for me, and honestly I dont think I could work anything out in the same fasion for her either. I might get to see her next year but It's kinda unlikley. Though sometimes I swear she acts like it's a relationship, though I think most of that has to do with her BPD. like how she will tell me not to talk to the people she didnt get along with in WoW, or the why she might yell at them to leave me alone. She really likes to kid around about being flirty too. She refer to me as babe, sweetie, cutie or gorgeous, which dont get me wrong I like a lot, but kinda makes me wonder how she can then say, theres nothing that would ever happen between the 2 of us, and that if I lived closer to her we would just be best friends. I guess apparently this is how she treats all her male friends Im also amazed how she wont admit me to any of her real life friends cause we met in WoW which I bearly play anymore, and will probly be completly done with by the time I start school again. She feels completly ashamed about me and other friends she met in that game, wont let any of us leave comments on her myspace, and will not, I mean absolutly Will not add us or let us add her on facebook, because she says all her real life friends are there and we cant be seen talking to her on there. Thats kinda what really has me frustrated at the moment. I feel like she just played wow, and talks almost every instant messenger out there just to feel like she can go anywhere, be flirty, show us her vast photo album of her going out wearing skimpy costumes being all dolled up, and feel like she can get along with anyone and be popular and be the jealous envy of all the guys out there in cyberland, and in real life with the gorgeous man she claims she will have some day soon. It really fried me when she told me no guy that plays wow would ever be right for her, and that the feelings she had for my guild leader were just pretend. she also sometimes comes to me complaining to me "why do people find her unlikeable". Then when I try and give her advise by saying "maybe she should "try" and think before she acts, she gets really offended and says she doesnt need to change, and that I could never be the man who understands her, and that one day she will meet a gorgeous man who comepletly agrees with her and always understands her, and she's going to make herself look as hot as possible and make everyone jealous "her exact words to me". She won't take any criticism from me or anyone else, even constructive criticism. If all of that doesnt say she's haveing some major problems with her BPD then I honestly dont know what would. Any advise you guys can give me in dealing with this, that doesnt involve me doing something to uspet her and making her shout terrible things at me would be much appreciated.

[Sophist]

The advice my mother gave me when dealing with Borderlines (and I don't know if you'll have success implementing it consistently enough, since it can be hard enough for a therapist to do this) is the Carrot and the Stick Approach. In other words, rewards for good behavior (specifically, good behavior in the relationship, praise for healthy interactions) but also keeping personal boundaries. Implementing rewards may be more difficult in an online situation, but keeping boundaries should be easier.

The worst thing to do which hurts a BPDer and continues them on the same downward path is to let them get deep under your skin while at the same time allowing them to continue the old patterns. And you've already let her in. You're not doing her any favors by teaching her that you're yet another person who has few boundaries and that she's allowed to push and pull you every which way.

Adults benefit from discipline and rules too, not just kids. Up till now, it sounds like you've taught her that she can twist you just around her little finger without much regard to how it makes you feel.

I suspect one overarching theme to a BPDers behaviors is the ultimate fear of abandonment. It's how they come to this "I hate you, don't leave me" approach. Pushing away when they fear or feel hurt, pulling towards them when the person starts to move away. They don't want to be hurt, but they also want stability.

I wouldn't recommend you take on the role of the therapist for her, Faint. But if you are, in the meantime, determined to remain in her online life, then remaining stable and keeping your personal boundaries firm are the best medicine for her.