The debate

[adhocisadirtyword]

I watched the debate tonight and for those who did watch it, I'm curious as to what your reactions were.

To make this more relevant to the forum - I find it interesting as to how much of the US News Media is focusing on the fact that John McCain couldn't make eye contact with Barack Obama.

I didn't really care about eye contact or physical stance (though McCain did look uncomfortable, but he always does) -- but I did notice his tone in the words that he chose. He came off as exceptionally condescending.

Obama for his part seemed knowledgeable, but a bit too vigilant on defending himself and getting in the last word. He played too much into the game that I think was being set up with McCain's condescending tone.

[ruth]

The eye contact thing, or to be accurate, McCain's unwillingness or refusal or perhaps even inability to make eye contact with Obama is/was extremely disturbing to me. Setting aside the fact that this is a forum whose members are all aware of eye contact issues and know first hand the effect that lack of eye contact has on the way we are perceived - shifty, dishonest, weak, etc. - coming from McCain, a warrior, hero, veteran statesman, it was unforgivable, sad, pathetic, and to me, a sign of his awareness of his own inferiority in this race. He couldn't look into the eyes of the Alpha male, especially, and I hope this won't offend anyone, a black Alpha male.

Another thing that I saw in McCain last night, and which I was not aware of previously, as I do not generally follow politics or keep track of politicians and their particular methods, stances, and ideologies, was his apparent belief and practice of ignoring, dismissing, dis-including, scorning, banning, shunning, and perhaps even persecuting, anyone with views diametrically opposed to his own. It's Bull sh** and it's bully behavior.

[Sophist]

Yes, McCain did look incredibly uncomfortable. And I agree that he acted condescending, like "Little Boy Obama, you ain't SEEN what I seen in my lifetime. --Why in MY day we had to walk 35 miles just to get a carton of milk!" He kept bringing up all those old stories too: "The Great Senator Such-and-such told me one time, 'John, blah di blah di blah blah' and I've remembered it to THIS DAY."

I thought Obama behaved more statesmanlike, but he definitely looked uncomfortable too. Did anybody find it painfully obvious that these two men REALLY REALLY REALLY don't like each other??? Not only on a moral standpoint, but on a personal man-to-man standpoint as well.

Obama started off very well imo; McCain finished far better than he started, especially once the military issues were brought up. Let's face it, that's his area of expertise. But I think Obama will make a far better diplomat and president. I say we give McCain back to the Armed Forces, because one thing's for sure: he'll be a warring president and the world's had more than enough wars.

"I won't sit down with ANYONE who doesn't accept our conditions!" Um, if they've already accepted your conditions, why the hell would you need to sit down and talk with them in the first place???????????????

[adhocisadirtyword]

Oh yeah - there's some deep seated dislike going on there. However - it was apparent to me that Obama can actually act like a grown up around someone he doesn't like. I didn't get that impression from McCain.

I actually think McCain tanked on foreign policy. He referred to Pakistan as a failed state during a time when it was a democracy and he got the name of the president wrong.

If foreign policy is his strong suit, then I think he's in trouble.

Obama had problems with the economy not because he didn't know what he was talking about, but because he kept having to spend all his time defending himself from lies and misrepresentations of his position.

My favorite part was the "I have a bracelet too" line. It was so powerful. "Winning" isn't worth it if it sacrifices one more person's child.

I get what you're saying about the eye contact, Ruth - but I can't be so sure myself. I've watched these politicians very closely in the primary debates, in speeches - John McCain doesn't ever seem able to make direct eye contact on something widely televised. There's something bigger going on there rather than a hatred for Obama.

[Sophist]

Yeah, Obama coming back with HIS bracelet, that was priceless.

[goddessoflubbock]

On the bracelet thing - I've heard several different versions of McCain's story - or does he have several bracelets? I'm sure he would've kicked back with it if he did after Obama pulled out his bracelet story. I've heard on the McCain side that it appeared on his seat on the bus (which I find hard to believe given security issues); that the mother handed it to him; and that it was mailed to him. Are there three? Of course I'm still trying to find all 13 elected positions Palin boasted of in the beginning (and I'm counting PTA president....).

I found McCain had a very bad attitude - while Obama would say he agreed with some McCain said then point out where they diverge, McCain was constant with the "where Senator Obama is wrong/mistaken, etc". That got a little old. Along with the stories. I assume at some point in time he also had a sit down with Julius Cesar? When he was talking about Viet Nam I saw he finally held his tongue, as back earlier in the campaign he asked what Obama had done for that conflict. Uh, his homework maybe? He was a little young to be politicking...

McCain's posture does make him appear off-putting, but I can't imagine he couldn't have had possibly further surgery to help his arms/shoulders? Reports are it's very painful for him by the end of the day which I can imagine.

Obama looked old to me last night. Like half his hair had gone grey overnight. That doesn't bode well if he wins - if you look at presidents in the last century most come out of the 4-8 years looking 20 years older (except the likes of Reagan who went in ancient...).

McCain made some key points, but he gave some bad info along the way, and he seems to think he can ride in on his laurels of years of experience. Uh, how many more years of that can we live through?

I feel Obama could have made a better showing if he didn't have to be on the defensive so much, but I think he won the debate on Russia (esp. the communication thing), Pakistan, and Iraq.

Obama is also more directed towards what's best for the people based on what the people say they need; McCain I feel is very paternalistic and thinks he knows what's best without checking into it first.

Just my .02

[Kaylis-Americanis]

Obama is also more directed towards what's best for the people based on what the people say they need; McCain I feel is very paternalistic and thinks he knows what's best without checking into it first.

Just my .02

My thoughts exactly.

I actually watched the debate (on youtube, not live) while I usually pay no attention to politics...

Keeping with my Aspie tendencies to make lists... I made a tally of Pros and Cons for Obama and McCain. When they said or did something I didn't (or did) agree with or like, I marked it down. The final count:

McCain:
Pros- 10...Cons- 32

Obama:
Pros- 30...Cons- 16

So, I agree with only a third of what McCain had to say, and disagree with only a third of what Obama said.

[Charlie]

Time for an outsider comment (and I did see the end of it live on TV as it was being shown on BBC News, which at 3am took over transmission of BBC One, which I was watching (for some reason). The thing that struck me more than anything, and not reading the previous comments in detail I don't know if it has been raised, was the Obama was trying to be fairly balanced and reasoning/logical, whereas McCain was exceedingly blatant in his way of trying to say anything which will get him a vote, and would just dismiss anything that Obama would say. He was more focused on trying to smear Obama and his views than try to put forward any reasoning of his own, whilst still pandering to the swing-vote masses. The end was almost cringe-worthy from what I saw, with McCain almost on his knees begging war veterans to vote for him by repeating "They know I know how to look after them" a stupidly high number of times in the last few minutes. But he did not mention the first thing about how he would do it, and this statement could cynically be misconstrued as he knows what to do to repress the veterans and how to shut them up and eliminate their needs.

Interestingly the BBC decided to do something different at the end of the broadcast, but it was totally pointless - they went to reporters (British nationals) in 4 countries to ask them how the people in that country would react to the content of the debate. First stop Afghanistan. The reporter quickly destroyed the jovial mood of the presenter's question on how this had been received by replying, "It's just after 6am here and most people will still be in bed" pointing out that most Afghans couldn't care less about this debate. Iraq wasn't much better in the comments. The Moscow correspondent suggested that Russia would not get too bothered over it, as the debate is basically looking to get votes rather than shape foreign policies, although Russia would prefer Obama to be President (no guesses why!). Finally China. This correspondent guessed that whilst the Chinese people would be fairly oblivious to this debate going on, as all the state TV channels were focusing on the far more important topic of the first Chinese space walk which was happening that day, the leaders would be delighted, as China was only mentioned 3 times, and briefly at that. This would please the Chinese as they do not like other countries trying to tell them how to run their country.

Just prior to this the went to the studio in London where there were 2 female US students - 1 Republican, 1 Democrat, and asked them how they rated the debate, and if they considered their man won it, and if the debate had given them reason to switch allegiance. No surprise - they both hailed their guy as far superior and that their faith in him had got stronger. I actually felt sorry and embarrassed for them at this situation. It was now nearly 4am, and they had spent the whole night in a London TV studio, only to say about 20 words each in about a one minute segment, before going home. And those 20 words each were a complete waste of time and irrelevance in terms of what it was hoped to gain.

I also heard an American woman on the radio today actually saying that she though that the British in general understood more about American politics and the important issues than the Americans did (in general). Which is fine by me, as long as I can have a vote, as it is my world too which the Americans will destroy if they vote in the wrong man, so it is only right I have a chance to stop it happening!

One final point/question. What was with the big deal that McCain was making about going into open-table meetings with other leaders. From what McCain was saying is to meet with other leaders you need to just do in there knowing exactly what you want and bullying them into doing in with no compromise. Sorry, but that is how certain wars got started, with certain world leaders saying "YOU MUST DO THIS!!!" The other leaders thought "The have no right to dictate these things to me" and so refused to co-operate. At least with the occasional free meeting it gives the chance to find out why people do/want things and be able to understand the others' cultures.

[Charlie]

3 more things I recall from the debate....

1) The way Obama made sure he got in that the name is Kenyan, no doubt to try and get rid of the Osama connotation

2) The Pakistan thing - I was slightly worried by the way he inferred at one point that he would go over the Pakistani border to get the insurgents, although at another point he did suggest working and aiding the Pakistanis.

3) I hadn't realised that the "Finding Osama" thing was an immediate "find and kill" rather than any sort of trial first. Maybe that is me being an innocent soul. Maybe it is there has never been that much focus on killing him rather than stopping all the insurgents.

[Sophist]

Yeah, I hadn't really thought about Osama and the find and kill thing. Hell, even Hussein got a trial!

As far as the rest of the world voting in our election, I'd love it. Obama would definitely win and the past couple of elections would've been more sensical. Although I will point out that it's not "Americans" in general, but more around half the country that are determined to vote in the Republicans again. Which means there's a whole 'nother half who seem to make some sense.

[adhocisadirtyword]

Good points Yessuh. The 'round-the-world view sounded kind of pointless.

The finding and killing Osama Bin Laden thing has been talked about before in the campaigns. I think people are afraid that a Democrat president would be soft on terror.

You should see the ads we had here in 2004 ("wolves will eat your babies if you vote for John Kerry" and stuff like that).

I think Obama needs to come off strong in that area to get him elected.

Fact of the matter is that Bin Laden is probably surrounded by a lot of people and it would be an enormous undertaking to actually capture him and would put a lot of peoples' lives at risk.

[Kaylis-Americanis]

One of the things I disliked about McCain also was what someone said up there, that he didn't actually have any concrete ideas, just "yes, we will solve this problem, and when I was in Russia..." or whatever he would talk about at that point...Obama laid out "First, we need to...and then....and thirdly..." and then he stopped talking, and didn't tell (as many) pointless stories to show us how he is a big government guy with high-up friends.

[goddessoflubbock]

3 more things I recall from the debate....

1) The way Obama made sure he got in that the name is Kenyan, no doubt to try and get rid of the Osama connotation.

Back in the winter someone also brought out that Obama's middle name is Hussein, there was quite a little stir over that as well.

I will say the one thing that scares me more than John McCain for president is Sarah Palin. Yes, he could live to 100, but the presidency ages people and he's already got one foot on a banana peel.

His comment in response to a question about her foreign policy experience, stating she lives "right across from Russia" - sounded like what a 2nd grader would say. I live "right across" from Mexico - but can't say I'm an expert or even highly informed on their political systems.

Something somewhat non-related that is started to get to me - CNN has this electronic board showing all the states in the US, but it is colored in based on the Bush Kerry election results - therefore it is mostly red. I think it is misleading. I like to think that people who make their way to CNN are already more informed, but it could surely lead someone to believe the Republicans already basically have 90% of the votes, so why should they vote at all....

[Charlie]

The finding and killing Osama Bin Laden thing has been talked about before in the campaigns. I think people are afraid that a Democrat president would be soft on terror.

You should see the ads we had here in 2004 ("wolves will eat your babies if you vote for John Kerry" and stuff like that).

I think Obama needs to come off strong in that area to get him elected.

You do try to confuse me don't you. I was thinking when I read this why would Obama need come come across hard on wolves eating babies? Then I realised

[Sophist]

One of the things I disliked about McCain also was what someone said up there, that he didn't actually have any concrete ideas, just "yes, we will solve this problem, and when I was in Russia..." or whatever he would talk about at that point...Obama laid out "First, we need to...and then....and thirdly..." and then he stopped talking, and didn't tell (as many) pointless stories to show us how he is a big government guy with high-up friends.

I agree. For most of the debate whenever McCain would finish talking, I'd sit back and ask myself "I know he was just talking... But did he SAY anything??" and concluded he was just blowing a lot of wind 99% of the time.