Karen Savlov

[ruth]

Is it the case that psychoanalysts do psychoanalysis on each other as part and parcel of becoming what they are - or should I not pay too much heed to 'Spellbound' (what can I say, I'm a film buff)

I think this is the case.

As far as the twenty year question, that would mean, for me, having 1.5 years under my belt already, another 18.5 years to go, and a nice clear head by the time I reach eighty-five. So I can go to my grave perfectly sane.

It has always been my view that psychoanalysis is a luxury that most American's can not afford. Or perhaps, those Americans who could possibly afford it, with some strict budgeting, would prefer to spend that money on other more material luxuries. Most working class Americans, I think, are suspicious of psychologists and psychiatrists and would prefer to keep their distance from that branch of medicine. They struggle to keep their heads above water paying for basic necessities and health care. I am working class, but I am in the minority of my class with my views on mental health and the benefits of psychoanalysis. I would prefer to go without material things in order to be able to function at the highest level possible for me. I think psychoanalysis can help me to do that.

[Noctivagus]

Yes, a Psychoanalyst is required to be in analysis for three to five years during the training process. Actually I found that part of the program to be the most beneficial to me.

I'm glad Hitchcock and co did their homework It was one of those details that suggested a degree of research for the film to me.

Thanks again for your reply and for your patience.

If the 20 years were helpful to you, then they were not excessive in my opinion. I am glad it helped you to be successful in your life

I've just read two blogs on your site regarding 'Change' and found them insightful (I'll read more later). I have reached the conclusion previously that I live most of my life scared. Scared of others and scared of myself making faux pas. I actually think this has a connection to my fear of accepting/trusting friendship (I recognise this in myself)... which is possibly part of my self-esteem issues. I find it very difficult when people say nice things about me or my talents (not that I am particularly talented)... mind you in most cases I think those people are just being social rather than real. I get cross because I do not know where I stand in relation to people who are being nice... I do not know whether they are to be believed or not. This is part of what I brought up with my psychologist recently. People automatically seek to reassure that I simply have a problem with self-esteem... but I am not sure whether it is my problem with self-esteem, or actually real. I do not wish to be fooled into placing both feet into the self-esteem camp if that is error... and I fear that it is at least half error. Everything, beyond my family unit, is fear. I avoid going out, unless it is with my wife and children... if it is only me, then I only have shame and fear to focus on. I am very thankful for my fortune in having my wife and children - though I worry about my wife living in a house of autistics who may not reciprocate as she needs.

[Noctivagus]

Most working class Americans, I think, are suspicious of psychologists and psychiatrists and would prefer to keep their distance from that branch of medicine.

I think the view those around me had of the USA in regards to psychiatry while I was growing up... was not based on the true state of affairs... probably an impression garnered by imported TV. I personally have no problem with psychologists, though I do not believe that seeing one has ever yet helped me (the most recent one had experience with Autistics)... a few months here and a few months there with years of gap between throughout my life. Indeed, in 2001, it was a necessary part of the process towards my eventual DX on the Autistic Spectrum in 2002 - so perhaps that particular session was helpful.

I avoid psychiatrists, because those are the ones that prescribe drugs... and they had me on some nasty drugs as a child because of my disruptive behaviour at school. If they aren't going to try and prescribe me drugs then I have no problem with them either.

[ruth]

Quoting Noctivagus;

I avoid psychiatrists, because those are the ones that prescribe drugs... and they had me on some nasty drugs as a child because of my disruptive behaviour at school. If they aren't going to try and prescribe me drugs then I have no problem with them either.

My psychiatrist has not prescribed any drugs for me and has never hinted that he would like to. Of course, I made it very clear to him from the start that I do not like the idea of taking drugs of any sort, except for the occasional antibiotic or aspirin. My GP prescribes the lowest dose of xanax and 30 tablets last me for about a year. You see, I am even fearful of adverse reactions to vitamin and mineral supplements which I have experienced in the past. Whether the reactions are real or imagined I can't say for sure, but I prefer to avoid supplements altogether, just to be sure, and focus on healthy, fresh, organic foods instead.

I guess that sounds kind of weird, but I have been profoundly influenced by the writing of Mary Baker Eddy, and while I am not a Christian Scientist per se, I see something very appealing, valid and beneficial in the major ideas of Science & Health. Employing those ideas though, day in and day out, takes an awful lot of mindfullness and hard work. I don't always have that to give.

[Noctivagus]

My psychiatrist has not prescribed any drugs for me and has never hinted that he would like to.

There are certain psychiatrists in the UK that will not put you on their waiting lists unless you are taking certain drugs prescribed by them. Not all, but many. I do not know whether this is the case in the USA or not. This happened to me during a short period of my adult life... thankfully I came to my senses, stopped taking the drugs, resigned from my then job, and cancelled my place on the waiting list (this because of a series of palpatations I got following bullying in the work place by a manager). The difficulties started after I told the manager that certain stock was going missing... it turned out later that year (after I had left the firm) that it had been that very manager who had been stealing the stock... he was caught red-handed.

I didn't need a psychiatrist... I needed out from that employment. Thankfully, I got that right in the end.

[Karen Savlov]

Let me see if I can quote. I am following Ruth's instructions. Wish me luck.

Is it Nocti or Noctivagus? I notice Ruth shortens your name.

I'm glad Hitchcock and co did their homework It was one of those details that suggested a degree of research for the film to me.

Thanks again for your reply and for your patience.

If the 20 years were helpful to you, then they were not excessive in my opinion. I am glad it helped you to be successful in your life

Thanks for your comments.

I've just read two blogs on your site regarding 'Change' and found them insightful (I'll read more later). I have reached the conclusion previously that I live most of my life scared. Scared of others and scared of myself making faux pas.

Thanks for reading my blog. Change is such a difficult thing for most people to deal with. It seems that feeling scared has left you more limited in your relationships with others. That makes sense to me. This you connect to self-esteem. You seem to have a lot of insight into yourself.

[Karen Savlov]

I am still having a hard time with the quotes. I will keep working on perfecting this technique. Unfortunately I am doing it when I am tired.

I just wanted to comment on the discussions about psychiatrists. I only recommend that someone see a psyciatrist if they feel they cannot manage their life without it. The research seems to say that medications and therapy together have proven to be helpful. Unfortunately many people just take the medication and forget about the therapy.

Ruth,

It seems you are benefiting from your analysis. Each person is different regarding how much time, energy and money they put into the analytic process. It has helped me so much to clarify to myself who I am. It has helped in my own self-esteem and abilty to have the kind of relationships that are good for me.

I am tired and will return tomorrow. Karen

[ruth]

Quoting Karen:

Ruth,

It seems you are benefiting from your analysis. Each person is different regarding how much time, energy and money they put into the analytic process. It has helped me so much to clarify to myself who I am. It has helped in my own self-esteem and abilty to have the kind of relationships that are good for me.

Yes, I really believe I am benefiting and that is why I am sticking with it. My self esteem is improving, my relationship with my husband is improving in leaps and bounds. I am learning not to be so reactive and to think more before I speak. In return, my husband seems to be cutting me more slack when I do have outbursts. Instead of getting angry and storming out of the house, he backs off gently without removing himself entirely, reminds me in a nice way that I am over-reacting, allows me to express my frustration, comforts me. It's as if his eyes are being opened as well as mine, even though I am the one in therapy. He is giving me validation and support. And, in return again, his attempt to understand and support me, to take me seriously, has given me new and greater respect for him. We have become much more considerate of each other and this has really helped to decrease my anxiety and lesson the depth of my depression.

I have the energy and the time for therapy, the money is harder to come by and justify. But since going to therapy, I have not had to make trips to my GP or the ER. So really, if you think of it that way, the year and a half that I have been in therapy has been less costly than the cost of an ER visit and one day in the hospital

Karen, it is really so kind of you to visit us and engage in a dialogue with us. Thank you for making yourself available and approachable.

[renaeden]

My ideas about an "Incomplete Attachment" are meant to be a statement based on my observations/experiences. Autistic children can demonstrate strong attachments and we can see that when the child may gain our attention with a certain subject they love to talk to. Some of the chldren will attach very strongly to the point of not being able to let go. I believe that the children and possibly others are always in the 'attachment mode'. They are waiting to attach and will thus demonstrate attachment behaviors. I think of this as being primed for attachment, but it just has not happened yet. These demonstrated attachment behaviors do not mean the child has actually attached. I feel my job is to help the child to complete the attachment process. Of course this is if the child wants the help. It will always be more difficult to gain their attention because in my mind they have never previously had the experience of a completed attachment.

Hello Karen.
What you said in this paragraph kind of reminds me of what has been said of mothers not taking the time to bond with their child.
I remember wanting to bond, then not wanting to, then wanting to bond.... and on and on that way. My mum must have gotten confused! So maybe some other autistic kids are the same way - they are not sure about it just as I never was.

[Karen Savlov]

Karen, it is really so kind of you to visit us and engage in a dialogue with us. Thank you for making yourself available and approachable.[/quote]


Ruth,

Thanks for the feedback about your experience with psychoanalysis. Isn't it interesting how when one person is in therapy the benefit to others as well. It is not only helping you, but your relationship as well. I also like the way you figured out the expenses. I think you are right when you figure what it would cost to go to the ER or to see your primary doc. I stay away from figuring out how much my anaylysis cost. I once did have a dream that I bought a very expensive dress. I forgot the amount, but it was in the thousands of dollars. I could not figure out the dream until I went back and figured out how much I had spent in analysis. The amount of the dress was exactly the amount I had spent in analysis. When I have experiences like that I am awed by the unconscious.

I appreciate your commenting that I am approachable and available. Those are two important qualities I value. I appreciate that you recognize them. I value relationships and I think it is so imporant to have dialogues. I am enjoying this process with this group. Karen

[Karen Savlov]

renaeden

You commented on bonding and that you remember going back and forth regarding whether to bond or not. I find that very consistent with my thinking. The bonding process is so important and I do not believe that most people understand the consequences of not having had a secure or even an insecure attachment. I really do believe that an attachment has not occurred for those with autism. I also believe that the good news is that an attachment can occur even much later in life. Of course, the person with autism would want that to happen.

Thanks for letting me voice my opinions here. Karen

[Neo Noctivagus]

Is it Nocti or Noctivagus? I notice Ruth shortens your name.

It can be either... If my tag is shortened, I prefer 'Nocti'

It seems that feeling scared has left you more limited in your relationships with others.

I think there may be a case for that. I seldom know quite how to understand my position in relation to somebody else... especially one who claims friendship and I feel scared at accepting a friend who turns out to be false. Such things are painful. I find it difficult to understand why anybody would wish to be my friend... therefore building up trust first is very important to me if I am to believe in a friendship... I have to trust the person that they are not misleading me in a friendship I cannot rationalise. This may be self-esteem related, or it may be accurate - I have spent years wondering - however, I find that most friendships turn out to be false. That is more or less one of the things I have been batting back and forth in my recent psychologist sessions.

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The bonding process is so important and I do not believe that most people understand the consequences of not having had a secure or even an insecure attachment. I really do believe that an attachment has not occurred for those with autism.

There is a concern that might put members minds at rest if discussed. You are probably aware of the 'Refrigerator Mothers' hypothesis of Autism cause, held by Leo Kanner among others. Some comments made seem to have reminded some members of this theory rightly or wrongly. Personally, from what little I have read, I think you are possibly speaking about what is going on within an Autistic, rather than outside effects of parental behaviour bringing about Autism in a child.

I wonder if, for clarities sake, you would state for us your position regarding the 'Refrigerator Mothers' hypothesis

Link to WIKI Article on Refrigerator Mothers.

[Aspen]

The bonding process is so important and I do not believe that most people understand the consequences of not having had a secure or even an insecure attachment. I really do believe that an attachment has not occurred for those with autism.

There is a concern that might put members minds at rest if discussed. You are probably aware of the 'Refrigerator Mothers' hypothesis of Autism cause, held by Leo Kanner among others. Some comments made seem to have reminded some members of this theory rightly or wrongly. Personally, from what little I have read, I think you are possibly speaking about what is going on within an Autistic, rather than outside effects of parental behaviour bringing about Autism in a child.

I wonder if, for clarities sake, you would state for us your position regarding the 'Refrigerator Mothers' hypothesis

Link to WIKI Article on Refrigerator Mothers.

That is a very good question, Noctivagus. I was trying to figure out how to ask it myself.

I think that my daughter is very securely attached to me, yet she is autistic. I'm warm and caring and certainly am no 'Refrigerator Mother.' I feel like I can actually understand many of her issues better than most other people would be able to do, because I share some of them myself. I could understand her even when other people couldn't and I'm devoted to giving her the best life possible. I'm her paraprofessional for the hour and a half bus ride to her school for autistic children because the school district couldn't find anyone who could handle doing it.

I know that you are the opposite of a 'Refrigerator Father' yourself and you are equally devoted to your children.

[Neo Noctivagus]

I think that my daughter is very securely attached to me, yet she is autistic. I'm warm and caring and certainly am no 'Refrigerator Mother.' I feel like I can actually understand many of her issues better than most other people would be able to do, because I share some of them myself. I could understand her even when other people couldn't and I'm devoted to giving her the best life possible.

I feel the exact same way about my son and daughter. Especially my daughter who is ever so much a Daddy's girl (my son, whilst bonded well to me from birth, is more Mummy orientated, like I was as a child) We are a close and loving family, lots of cuddles for all... both to and from each other.

However there are certain things mentioned that have made me wonder about attachment from within. This primed for attachment thing, providing I understand it correctly. Perhaps, many (not all) Autistics are primed for attachment and yet the priming area of the brain doesn't communicate to the attachment area of the brain and so the autistic remains in Primed mode, regardless of a loving accepting, happy environment... if you get what I mean. Rather like the transmission/reception of emotional communication part of Autism. I have started wondering if that might be the case with me. From babyhood right through to today, my wife and mother say how affectionate I am... however, I always feel uncertain that I am liked/loved and things come down to trusting what the person says rather than recognition in other ways that what they say is true. Is this from my personal history as an Autistic person being possibly bullied into self-esteem issues, or is this something biological regarding my autism wiring.

Sorry if that might be vague or confusing... I've only just started giving this sort of thing some thought. I appreciate I might be barking up a tree without a paddle

I know that you are the opposite of a 'Refrigerator Father' yourself and you are equally devoted to your children.

Lots of cuddles, and play (as far as my arthritis will permit), and laughter I hope I give my children what they need from a father, regardless of my autism. Irene, my wife (and NT), is a very very warm and caring person... who like me adores our children... our whole universe revolves around the children We waited many years of marriage before starting a family, but we wanted to be ready and mature enough... we always wanted to have children... I wanted five, however pregnancies were not kind to Irene and our two are worth five to us anyway

[Karen Savlov]

There have been a couple of questions about where I stand regarding Leo Kanner's phrase "Refrigerator Mother's" or I guess Father's as well. I do not like that terminology at all. I think it is blaming and makes people feel defensive. It does not at all express what my opinion is of an "Incomplete Attachment".

I do believe an Incomplete Attachment has occurred for the autistic person, but I do not know why. I do not believe anybody did anything deliberate to cause autism as implied with Refrigerator Mothers. To me autism is not about being cold and not loving one's child. I strongly believe that autistic children are loved very much by their parents and visa versa. I do believe that the autistic child has not attached for whatever reason and is left with the so called autistic behaviors. I believe the autistic behaviors are coping behaviors. The child is coping with not having had a completed attachment. It is through the attachment process that people acquire language, learn to symbolize words and to relate to others. Without a completed attachment the child is left to try to figure out how to exist and be a person. I believe the work with autistic children and individuals should be in helping the person acquire through a trusting relationship a completed attachment. This is not an easy accomplishment if an incomplete attachment has occurred. I do believe that the person with autism can gain a completed attachment and grow because of this attachment. I hope this has clarified some of your questions about me. If you would like further clarificaion, I would be glad to do that.