Plastic surgery for children with Down's.

[beware_the_sluagh]

Why are parents even allowed to have their children get surgery that is not necessary?

Because they can pay for it....
I'm not sure how much legal restriction there is on surgery if the caregiver of the child authorises it. If it was DIY surgery it would be considered some kind of psychotic crazy abuse, even if anaesthetics and sanitary procedures were used; but if you pay a professional to do it, it would presumably be ok....

[TaylorS]

I agree with Hippocampus. If the individual with DS is able to understand enough to consent (say, for example, a higher functioning DS individual that is concerned that people will assume he/she is mentally retarded because of his/her physical appearance) I'm OK with it. If the individual himself/herself cannot consent to elective plastic surgery that person's parent or guardian shouldn't be allowed to consent

[loborojo]

I thought this part particularly funny:

At the weekend, her parents - a world-renowned plastic surgeon and his surgically-enhanced wife - admitted they are considering altering their daughter's appearance with surgery in the future to help her become more 'accepted' by society.

If the parents are a plastic surgeon and/or surgically enhanced, obviously their concept of normal is going to be a bit skewed. Maybe by the time she's 18, she will want plastic surgery so she can be just like her mum.

When I was in university (1991) my Intro to Psychology textbook showed a picture of a girl with Down's Syndrome who'd been given surgery to look more normal. The explanation was that it was to make her less vulnerable to bullying. But that was a long time ago and I think people understand what Down's Syndrome is a lot better now (there have been characters on TV, etc.), so looking like you've got Down's isn't the same problem it used to be. Plus now people are more aware that kids have feelings too, and performing surgery on someone that they can't understand and give consent to is considered more unethical than it used to be.

"In many ways, I consider myself lucky that Domenica does look different, because it alerts people to her condition. I have friends with autistic children, and when these children misbehave in public, everybody just assumes they are naughty.

Yes, definitely.

there are quite a few actors wiht Down syndrome...but that aside, i have the impression that the ones who are most anti abortion wouldn't fight as hard aginst aborting babies wiht that syndrome.

[AKAConlang]

In some ways, I think having the condition of Down's syndrome obvious on looking at a person is useful, because it lets you know how to respond to the person, and how they are likely also to respond.

Uh, sorry, no it doesn't. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but I want everybody who reads this thread to know that everybody with downsyndrome is different, just like everybody without it.

Is down's syndrome always quite a serious disability? I assume so, because I can't see how there can be grades of severity with regards to a specific genetic abnormality. However, the article says it would be unfair if the child was turned down for a job based on their looks; wouldn't any job she got mean that the employer would have to know about the down's syndrome anyway?

You could call it a "specific genetic abnormality" but it's because of the extra dosage of all the genes on Chromosome 21. Depending on your genes, your downsyndrome will vary.

95% of the time, the extra 21st chromosome is from a non-disjunction, where one cell gets an extra chromosome during division, and the other cell does not get one.

Therefore, DS is not a spectrum any more than having two copies of a single Chr is a spectrum.

People with downsyndrome might or might not have any of the following: epicanthal folds, small nose, smaller jaw (but normal size tongue), single palmar crease, MR, low muscle tone, poor coordination, malformations of the heart, or intestine, and any of these can be more, or less prominent than other traits, or completely absent. There is no one with Downsyndrome that can be put on a line from "mild" to "severe" although that is how they will measure whatever MR may be present.

This is why a person with downsyndrome, like someone with any other label, has to disclose any special accomodations they need, because aside from the fact that the general public doesn't know anything about downsyndrome, everyone's needs will be different.

[AKAConlang]

Also, I am sure that there are individuals with Down Syndrome who in a particular situation or at a particular time cannot give consent, but it's not because they are "children forever." Mental age was thrown out of psychiatry years ago, because it contradicted the fact that in every age group there wil always be variation in IQ score.

There are of course plenty of things that can cause someone to be unable to give consent, and there are plenty of people who have been railroaded into things because other people thought they would be better off, even though the person concerned did not want it. The latter includes people who are fully capable of giving their consent, if only it had truly been solicited.

[Charlie]

There were news items yesterday saying how in the UK the birth rate of those born with Down's Syndrome has increased (from 594 in (the year) 2000 to 749 in 2006), despite better pre-natal tests being able to diagnose it. The main reason this goes against what would be suggested? Parents are now not afraid to bring up a Down's child and there is not a stigma attached like there used to be, and also can be better prepared to deal with any challenges. Rather than aborting the foetus people are wanting to give the child it's life and support it and cherish its individuality.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7741411.stm

[Sophist]

There were news items yesterday saying how in the UK the birth rate of those born with Down's Syndrome has increased (from 594 in (the year) 2000 to 749 in 2006), despite better pre-natal tests being able to diagnose it. The main reason this goes against what would be suggested? Parents are now not afraid to bring up a Down's child and there is not a stigma attached like there used to be, and also can be better prepared to deal with any challenges. Rather than aborting the foetus people are wanting to give the child it's life and support it and cherish its individuality.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7741411.stm

I hope that's very true and that the occurrence rate just hasn't gone up.

[AKAConlang]

Why would it go up?

[Charlie]

Why would it go up?

I am guessing you mean why would the occurrence rate go up (as in Sophist's reply) rather than why would the number of Downs births increase (as in my previous post).

Firstly, the population is growing, so the rate of babies being born increases, thus if there was a hypothetical 10% chance of a baby having a given disorder, for every extra 10 babies being born in a given period one of these would be affected. However, the incidence of having a potential Downs foetus is very small, and to produce a huge change of results like this it would need a gigantic population growth, which in 6 years is impossible.

Another possibility may be to suggest that certain genetic disorders can get more prevalent as the number of carriers of the mutant genes (whilst not sufferers themselves) increases, thus the potential for intercourse with other carriers increases. Again this would not be noticeable over the small number of years, and this is not a realistic model for Down's Syndrome anyway as most cases come from mutations or improper copying of the chromosomes rather than a hereditary condition.

There are apparent links with the age of the mother and the chance of a Downs baby, and as women are more commonly putting off having a family in sake of a career until later in life, any such links could be exacerbated, and show as an increase in incidence. Whilst this tendency has increased over the last decade or so, I would say it would be highly unlikely that this would be an answer why there are so many more births.

The most reasonable explanation would still be that people are increasingly choosing to not abort foetuses which are shown to have an abnormality, as the science and assistance available are improving rapidly.

[ruth]

In part it's incredibly sad (that naivity and vulnerability and the fact that she might not understand what love is), but mostly I think that it's incredibly beautiful (that she's that loving and open and that maybe she does genuinely love everyone because she's more open to it than 'normal' people).

Yes, I agree, it is both incredibly sad and incredibly beautiful, as you say.

Recently I met two former co-workers ( ran into them not a planned meeting) in a restaurant. I noticed them and went to their table to say hello. I was fond of each, but didn't realize until that chance meeting that they were sister and brother. I gave the woman a hug, as I knew her better than I did her brother and I had always admired and been fond of her, but knew little or next to nothing of her personal life. (Actually these two were elderly volunteers at the hospital where I worked. They still thought of me as a "kid" because of their advanced age.) There was a third person at the table with them, a female, hard to say her age, probably late thirties, she had the features that usually accompany Down's Syndrome. I was so touched when this younger woman waited for a lull in our conversation and introduced herself to me by saying very proudly and with a charming smile, "I'm her daughter." I wondered why my co-worker failed to make that known to me and take advantage of the opportunity to introduce me to her daughter. I don't know for sure, but I think it was deliberate, or at least an indication that she was not in the habit of giving her daughter the same respect as she would give "normal" people. She thought it was important enough to tell me that the man across the table from her was her brother, but not that the young woman sitting next to him was her daughter. I thought, " well good for you, after all you are somebody too, as important as anyone else here, and you are proving this by speaking up and introducing yourself to me." I wonder how often this has happened to that young woman and others like her. The thing that makes this so sad and beautiful at the same time is that the young woman was (probably) unaware that her mother's failure to introduce her was a kind of dismissal or denial of her existence and had probably happened a hundred times before, yet her spirit was undaunted because of her child-like innocence. This experience touched me and is one that I will most likely not forget.

[AKAConlang]

Childlike innocence? Sounds to me like she was doing her damnedest not to be dismissed by a world that has no place for her.

I don't understand why people think a person with down syndrome would have no understanding of how the world works as far as they're concerned. It doesn't take a supergenuis aspie IQ score to understand that there is differential treatment.

[Kaylis-Americanis]

Why would it go up?

My first thought was that people with downs syndrome were perhaps having more children, or having children. Since its genetic, that was my first reaccion. <---Hahaha, that should be reaction, i spelled it on accident in Spanish and decided to leave it as evidence...of what, I'm not sure.

Anyways, my answer to the question would have made me happy and sad. Happy because I think in the past people probably wouldn't have let people with DS have children for fear of what could happen with the genes, or that they wouldn't be capable of taking care of a child. but I would like to think the world has accepted "different" people in the recent times. And sad because there's still a lot more cases of DS

*shrug* I don't really know much about DS, and the original link is broken, so there's my tidbits on the subject.

[AKAConlang]

Why would it go up?

My first thought was that people with downs syndrome were perhaps having more children, or having children. Since its genetic, that was my first reaccion. <---Hahaha, that should be reaction, i spelled it on accident in Spanish and decided to leave it as evidence...of what, I'm not sure.

Anyways, my answer to the question would have made me happy and sad. Happy because I think in the past people probably wouldn't have let people with DS have children for fear of what could happen with the genes, or that they wouldn't be capable of taking care of a child. but I would like to think the world has accepted "different" people in the recent times. And sad because there's still a lot more cases of DS

*shrug* I don't really know much about DS, and the original link is broken, so there's my tidbits on the subject.

There is a fifty percent chance of passing on chromosome differences. People with down syndrome do have children, but the number is small for the reasons you highlight, as well as for much more pernicious reasons.

[ruth]

Quoting Kaylis:

*shrug* I don't really know much about DS, and the original link is broken, so there's my tidbits on the subject.

I don't really know much about DS either, next to nothing in fact. And I'm certainly not a super-genius. But I think when the world and/or your mother treat you like sh** and you continue to love the world and/or your mother in spite of such treatment, without becoming bitter, angry, hateful or withdrawn, you are demonstrating unconditional love, and that's a pretty rare and lofty kind of love that very few of us achieve. I have really only observed it in children, although I'm sure it can exist in adults if they are willing to work on it. If it (unconditional love) was a common attribute and easy to attain it would not have been the subject of so many philosophers and religious leaders. I don't see the term child-like as being offensive in the least, as the leader of my religion urges us to become as little children if we want to see the kingdom of heaven.

I am very sorry AKAConlang, if my post has offended you.

[SomethingElse]

Childlike innocence? Sounds to me like she was doing her damnedest not to be dismissed by a world that has no place for her.

I don't understand why people think a person with down syndrome would have no understanding of how the world works as far as they're concerned. It doesn't take a supergenuis aspie IQ score to understand that there is differential treatment.

I think that's what everyone has meant by referring to it as a 'spectrum'. If you have autism, you have autism, but not everyone with autism is the same - the effects create a sort of spectrum. If you have Downs Syndrome, you have Downs Syndrome... but not everyone with DS is the same. I know one girl who is violent, and stabbed a classmate with a fork and tried to push my cousin out of a window. Yet the men I met with Downs in my sister's home were perfect gentlemen.

I think it's perfectly valid for Ruth to assume that the girl hadn't realised her mother had purposefully neglected to mention their relationship - lots of people wouldn't have. I probably wouldn't have thought much of her not being introduced (definitely wouldn't have read anything sinister into it). It's also perfectly possible that the girl had no idea she was being 'dismissed' (and I also think it's possible that she wasn't actually being dismissed - perhaps the woman assumed their relationship would be obvious but did not want Ruth to think that her brother was her husband?)... You may wish to believe the girl was purposefully refusing to be dismissed, and maybe she was, but it's just as likely she hadn't realised and was making an innocent comment.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that all people with DS are like children and lack the same insight and understanding as 'the rest of us', but I don't think any of us are deluded enough to believe that all of them are going to have profound insight or maturity - same as 'the rest of us' don't.

Because it's seen as a positive thing, much seems to be made of how autistic people can be extremely intelligent or talented or otherwise brilliant, but there's many of us that are probably 'painfully' average. Surely when we're thought brilliant because we've said something halfway intelligent or with a little bit of insight and people make a big deal of it, we should feel we are being patronised...