Plastic surgery for children with Down's.

[SomethingElse]

Article here.

I thought that there were some nice points made (against plastic surgery).

[Charlie]

Just another case of society trying to "fix" other people who don't conform to their self-limiting standards of normality. Why can people not accept those who are different, and the value they bring as they are

She is not broken. To change her artificially is wrong. Her appearance does not change who she is.

[SomethingElse]

"What these children bring to our lives is something so deep and extraordinary, it is humanity stripped to the bone," she says.

"It is not about how they look, but who they are. First and foremost, they are our children, children to be loved and cherished - not tampered with and altered because they look slightly different..."

I liked that bit.


I think that a lot of parents are embarrassed by disabled children, though, because a lot of 'outsiders' seem embarrassed for them, or even horrified at the thought that someone has to 'deal' with a child 'like that'.

My half sister came to a school production I was in and my mum took her to the toilet (she can go in on her own, my mum just accompanied her as far as outside the cubicle). She has the mental age of something like six to ten years old (her actual age is 35, I think, or close to that age if not), and so is quite noticeably disabled. Outside in the reception area, either on the way to or from the toilet, my mum saw another parent who struck up a conversation and asked if my half sister was 'hers' (my half sister is my dad's daughter). My mum said that she seemed quite horrified that this 'retarded' woman might be my mother's child. When my mum told her that she wasn't her daughter, she then seemed relieved. Not that anything to do with our life would have any impact on that woman.

[hesperus]

I've decided to never bring a child into a world such as this.

[Anemone]

I thought this part particularly funny:

At the weekend, her parents - a world-renowned plastic surgeon and his surgically-enhanced wife - admitted they are considering altering their daughter's appearance with surgery in the future to help her become more 'accepted' by society.

If the parents are a plastic surgeon and/or surgically enhanced, obviously their concept of normal is going to be a bit skewed. Maybe by the time she's 18, she will want plastic surgery so she can be just like her mum.

When I was in university (1991) my Intro to Psychology textbook showed a picture of a girl with Down's Syndrome who'd been given surgery to look more normal. The explanation was that it was to make her less vulnerable to bullying. But that was a long time ago and I think people understand what Down's Syndrome is a lot better now (there have been characters on TV, etc.), so looking like you've got Down's isn't the same problem it used to be. Plus now people are more aware that kids have feelings too, and performing surgery on someone that they can't understand and give consent to is considered more unethical than it used to be.

"In many ways, I consider myself lucky that Domenica does look different, because it alerts people to her condition. I have friends with autistic children, and when these children misbehave in public, everybody just assumes they are naughty.

Yes, definitely.

[beware_the_sluagh]

In some ways, I think having the condition of Down's syndrome obvious on looking at a person is useful, because it lets you know how to respond to the person, and how they are likely also to respond. Instead of thinking that they are a weirdo, you realise they have down's syndrome. Maybe one should not be thinking that people are weirdos when they do strange things, but people like to know WHY people are acting a certain way, and unusual behaviour is only accepted if there is some "reason".
For example, the guy who yells "hello" to me whenever he sees me even though he doesn't know me, I prefer that he looks different, because then I know he is not some creepy stalker guy, but a guy with an intellectual disability that tends to, for some reason, make the people with it overly friendly to everyone. Of course, what I prefer doesn't mean anything when it comes to what is best for these people, but it is an example of an advantage to looking different.
In the story, the mother does not want the child to be unfairly judged on how she looks. Presumably, however, the child is going to be judged, one way or another, because she is going to act differently, and even if she looks different, her behaviour will not hide her down's syndrome.
Is down's syndrome always quite a serious disability? I assume so, because I can't see how there can be grades of severity with regards to a specific genetic abnormality. However, the article says it would be unfair if the child was turned down for a job based on their looks; wouldn't any job she got mean that the employer would have to know about the down's syndrome anyway?

[SomethingElse]

^^ I agree. Even if people with Down's are vulnerable to bullying, surely educating people instead of forcefully changing the image of people with Down's would be the kinder and more sensible route?

^ I think Down's works like a spectrum. I don't have much knowledge of Down's, and I haven't met anyone properly who has it or is affected by it in some way, however, so I can't be sure. That's just the impression I've gathered (and I'm not even sure where that impression comes from, which is why I'm not sure how true it is).

The only time I've met people with Down's was at my half sister's 'home' and I thought they were lovely because they came out of their rooms and said hello and one of them shook my hand - I like manners and there's so many people who are 'normal' who don't have them. It's a shame so many people with disabilities are underestimated.

There are also Down's actors in films, sometimes (I can only think of two examples, admittedly) which is quite cool. I thought the guy in 'I Am Sam' was brilliant. Very funny.

[beware_the_sluagh]

hmmm, I might have to look it up and see if it is a spectrum of affected-ness. I can't remember specifically which people I've met with Down's. There's an office across the road from my work which finds and provides work for people with intellectual disabilities and all the people from there who act strangely look strange too, but I don't know what is wrong with any of them, and I'm not familiar enough with Down's to definitely identify if any of them have Down's. They are mostly very friendly, either to strangers or to each other. It always seems weird to me that these people are laughing and chatting and having fun with each other at lunch, and they are deemed abnormal by most, whereas I am deemed normal by most, but don't have friends like they do And it is slightly ironic that the strange man at the bus-stop who says hello to us when we go past on Friday mornings is the only stranger I will say hello back to!
I've mostly only had contact with people with serious intellectual disabilities such that they could never live without continuous care. Actually, some of them also had such serious physical disabilities and health problems that they can't live, full-stop, to adulthood They never did anything either, and you really did wonder why they were alive at all, and what the point was. Maybe they had more life and thoughts than I saw, but I was kind of scared of them and didn't ask about them either. This was when I was at primary school, we had a class of 5 people looked after by two specialist teachers, and I hung out there at lunch and play times for some reason, and helped out and stuff. It seems kind of weird in retrospect, and even weirder that I never found out what was wrong with any of them in that time.

[SomethingElse]

My half sister lives in a home because she needs constant care (everything she does needs to be supervised, but whereas in a normal setting this would be too difficult, in this home she can cook and do chores and she has friends and she can go to work and go on holidays). She loves everyone. Never mind that she hardly sees my dad, she still comes in and hugs him and tells him she loves him. She does the same with my grandad and he laps it up. But, basically, she loves everyone. Everyone at the home is her friend. I don't think she dislikes anyone apart from brief fallings out with her friends (very childish fallings out, also, and usually because her friend has hit her - I think the violent friend she had had Down's actually, but lots of them seem un-aggressive), but those are always temporary and she always refers to each person as 'my friend'.

In part it's incredibly sad (that naivity and vulnerability and the fact that she might not understand what love is), but mostly I think that it's incredibly beautiful (that she's that loving and open and that maybe she does genuinely love everyone because she's more open to it than 'normal' people).

[Sophist]

^ I think Down's works like a spectrum. I don't have much knowledge of Down's, and I haven't met anyone properly who has it or is affected by it in some way, however, so I can't be sure. That's just the impression I've gathered (and I'm not even sure where that impression comes from, which is why I'm not sure how true it is).

I believe it is too. I know that, even though it's not as common, there are Down's people who test in the average range of IQ as well. And there's definitely a range of severity of the associated medical conditions.

I think it may have to do with Chromosome 21, in that there's a specific section on 21 that is the "Down's" section and the person will have Down's if that is duplicated but may have less severe presentation when only part of the chromosome is in triplicate than when the entire chromosome is in triplicate.

And I don't know, it may even be different depending on the inherited alleles on 21 as well. Maybe some alleles are bigger risk factors.

I've decided to never bring a child into a world such as this.

Same here-- although not just because the world is so screwed up. Other reasons too.

[SomethingElse]

That's interesting. And thanks for clearing that up! I didn't want to be waffling on with false ideas and possibly giving other people them.

[beware_the_sluagh]

I think it may have to do with Chromosome 21, in that there's a specific section on 21 that is the "Down's" section and the person will have Down's if that is duplicated but may have less severe presentation when only part of the chromosome is in triplicate than when the entire chromosome is in triplicate.

Interesting; most of the genetics stuff I read about 10-15 years ago (when I was actually 10 - 15 years old myself, in fact) so not only do I forget most of it, but I think a lot of research has been done in that time, and a lot of the "facts" in the past were actually very simplistic, whereas now the complexity of genes and genetics is being realised (although, I would have thought it was obvious it was going to be more complicated...). Some things we were learning in biology at school were simultaneously being disproved or new information gathered, from what I read in Scientific American at the time.

[SomethingElse]

We just weren't told things in that sort of detail. So we knew why some people had Down's Syndrome, but we didn't learn about 'levels' of Down's.

We were told about blue and brown eyes, but then he didn't get around to explaining how you could get green eyes. It's a bit like throw backs - two white people could have a black baby, in theory, right? Or does it not work like that, because I was told that that could happen by someone, I'm sure of it? But if they're white then surely they'd only have the 'recessive' genes?

[Sophist]

I may not be totally correct though.

**wanders off to Wikipedia to recheck info**

[Hippocampus]

The article link doesn't work anymore, but this is an interesting discussion.

I think that any unnecessary surgery should be considered abusive if the person does not consent and/or does not understand the risks and the pain involved in it. I find it disturbing that surgery without any tangible medical benefit would be forced on a child or an adult with the mentality of a child.

Of course, this is not to say that everyone with Downs Syndrome should be prohibited from getting cosmetic surgery. Since it is a spectrum, some people with Downs Syndrome can understand the risks and therefore could make an informed decision to get it.

But if a person doesn't fully understand the risks or is highly susceptible to persuasion or manipulation, I don't think it's fair to subject them to something that is dangerous, painful, and not directly beneficial. It's scary that some parents choose to risk their children's lives and subject them to a lot of pain just to make them look "normal".

Why are parents even allowed to have their children get surgery that is not necessary?